#7: Halina Goldstein from Denmark

Rob    Welcome to the Three Answers podcast, where we reveal the day-to-day goodness in people's lives. Each guest answers three questions, such as, what do you do to be creative? This is show number eight, recorded on December 18, 2025. In Portland, Oregon, I'm your host today, Rob Bednark.

Today, I'm excited to do a call with my friend, Halina, who lives in Denmark. I met Halina 10 years ago, when we were at a conference. I didn't know who she was, and I walked up to her and introduced myself, and I'm so happy I did. I felt an instant connection with her, and though she lives in Denmark, and I haven't seen her in person since, we've kept in touch through video calls.

I'm looking forward to discovering some of the day-to-day goodness in her life.

Hello, Halina.

Halina    Hey, Rob.

Rob    It's nice to see you.

Halina    Likewise. This is exciting.

Rob    Thank you so much for accepting my invitation.

Halina    Well, thank you for having me. I'm curious.

Rob    Ah, curious. I love that. And how are you doing today?

Halina    I'm doing well. It's afternoon here in Denmark. It's just 4 p.m. and it's dark outside, so...

Rob    Oh, it's dark already. Oh, that's right. You're farther north than us.

Halina    Yes, yes. But I've been out, and it's a nice day.

Rob    Ah, nice. Okay, well, would you be willing to give an introduction about yourself? Whatever you'd like to share.

Halina    Sure. So, yeah, what to say? So, I've been working all my life, mostly as a spiritual coach and mentor, also taking care of kids in kindergartens, also playing music, also writing. So, it's been an exciting life, and by now I am officially retired, but not dead yet. So, things are still happening.

And as I said, I live in Denmark. I live alone, which I love. And this time I pretty much live one day at a time and see what happens.

Rob    Ah, beautiful. We talked about spiritual coach, mentor, kindergarten, teaching kids, and playing music. What kind of order did those come in throughout your life?

Halina    Actually, it was in parallel. Well, no, I started with taking care of kids when I was very young, 18. And then, but then I played music all my life, but started doing with, not professionals, but semi-professionally when I was around 30-something.

And a little bit earlier than that, when I was around 30, I started coaching and mentoring, because people asked me to do it. And for long periods, I would actually do all of it at the same time. And I loved it, because I like doing different things at the same time.

Rob    So, teaching, you started teaching at 18 with kids. How did that come about?

Halina    Well, that wasn't really teaching, because it was a nursery. And kindergartens in Denmark are more about play, or used to be, more about play than teaching, really. I don't know how that came about. It was probably just, you know, looking for a job or something.

It didn't require an education, because part of the staff had an education and part didn't, so I was that other part. And I just loved it. I just loved it, because I don't have kids myself, by choice, but I enjoy, you know, I enjoy spending time with them, and I'm fascinated by them.

So, it kind of just happened, and then it just continued. That's something I would do, like, on and off, and for some periods full-time, but many times, part-time, it was a beautiful, again, balancing the other things I was doing. You can learn a lot from kids.

Rob    Yeah, that's true, isn't it? We usually think of it the other way. We're the ones teaching kids.

Halina    Yeah, yeah. We're so vain.

Rob    Well, I think back on my life, my school and teachers, like so many of them, made such a big impact on me, so I think it's sometimes an under-appreciated profession.

Halina    That is true, and actually, when you say it this way, it's because when you said teaching kids in kindergarten, then I was thinking teaching them certain, you know, like teaching them to read or something like that. But when you say it this way, I'm thinking, yeah, that's teaching, too.

It's teaching them or leading them into some awareness of who they are and who the other kids are and how can we be together and what do we do when we have different needs or different preferences, or how can we make choices freely. That is all including why we play, right, in the kindergarten. So it's definitely also teaching. That's true. It's just not formal.

Rob    Right, right. If you think back on your schooling and teachers you've had, I know even though this isn't like formal teaching, but maybe people in school settings, whether it's teachers or other people, any come to mind that have had a particular impact on you?

Halina    Oh, yeah. Yeah. I guess most people have that. Some teachers, especially in our childhood, but also when I was in high school, that really made a difference. And it's funny because I am the kind of person that lives very little in the past and pretty much in the now, a little bit in the future, but I rarely go back.

But when you ask, you know, very specific images come, like really on the forefront of my awareness. And I am amazed at what a big influence some people have in our lives when we go to school. And then things can change many times, in many ways since then, but those beginnings are really important.

And when I think about it, again, it's not so much what they were teaching, but who they were, most definitely who they were. That was the big teaching behind the formal teaching.

Don't you find? Or was it different for you?

Rob    Yeah, that's very true. The ones who were excited about what they were doing, excited about what they were teaching. I think that was one of the biggest--the first thing that comes to mind for me is like I could feel that excitement and it rubbed off on me.

And also, you know, just a general caring about people, you know, where I felt safe and cared about and like their interest in me. That was huge.

Halina    Yeah.

Rob    Are there any particular ones that come to mind for you that you'd be willing to share? Or experiences or stories?

Halina    Actually, this is interesting because I could say something about my math teacher and the chemistry teachers. Because they showed me there was something bigger behind the math and behind the chemistry. Without saying it, it's just the feeling I had.

But actually, I came to think to another teacher, because I was parallel with attending regular school as a child, I also attended a music school. And there was one teacher that really affected me deeply, again, by who she was.

At the time, at least in Poland, when I lived, when they were teaching music, it was serious stuff. You had to, you know, train a lot and it was all very serious, but she was this very loving person who continued talking about play. So she was teaching what she had to teach, but she was so much about play.

And I think what especially made a deep, deep impression on me was that she was a survivor of a concentration camp. And she was so joyful, you know? She was pure joy of living, and you wouldn't think that. But she was like making a statement just by being there. She was so full of joy. Very close to my heart.

Rob    And what was it that she taught?

Halina    She taught me violin, and I sucked at it pretty much. So that wasn't my best instrument at all, but that didn't matter with her.

Rob    Wow. Play, that is something that has come up for me lately. I don't remember how it came about. I think that's something else that's underappreciated. To have a playful approach or spirit or attitude, I think it's... a big part of happiness or joy.

Halina    Yeah, it is. And also it's sometimes a way of changing your mood. Not in a forceful way, but sometimes when you go to a grocery store, you go to a grocery store and you stand in line. And all of us adults, we stand in line and we are serious and tired and we just want to get it over with.

But children, when they stand in line, they don't stand. They play, right? They would jump around and explore what's there, or they sing a little song, or they do some, I don't know, tapping of a rhythm. They play all the time. And it's the same line, the same waiting time, but a completely different experience, right?

Rob    Yeah. Oh, that's great. I never thought of that. Yeah, playing all the time. And the movement, definitely. That physicality.

Halina    Or at least until someone at school tells them to stop. You know, sit still.

Rob    Right. What would you say the essence of play is?

Halina    You know, I've been contemplating this a lot at some point in my life. And on the one hand, it's, you know, having fun.

But I always more and more think of play as playfulness, that to play is to be the fullness of who we are, to engage everything that we are and not just one part of us. So there is this joyous and, you know, playing, not serious, exploring, curious, but there's also this, you know, playing with life, like saying, I'm also this and also this and also this, I'm many things. And that's playfulness to me.

Rob    Wow. That fullness of who we are, suddenly play becomes pretty deep or profound. You know, usually we think of play as being something, okay, just go off and play. And that's like, that's not the important thing, not the serious thing. But when you talk about it being the fullness of who we are, it becomes kind of the thing in a sense.

Halina    Yeah. But when you look at kids, when they play, they are there like a hundred percent, right? They really are the fullness of who they are. They are, in a way, very serious about play.

It's also about learning, and they're doing it with all the, everything that they are, their body, their mind, their spirit, their feelings, everything is there, right? So we, the adults, yeah, go out and play, or we go, like, but we diminish actually what's going on there. This is how I see it, at least.

Rob    Oh, yeah, I agree. I think so too. In fact, I just came across in the last couple of days, it was a video, computer-related, you know, tech-related, but the guy was talking about a game designer. He was relating fun and learning, kind of how the two go together when we're learning, we're having fun, or maybe not by definition, but that's maybe a nicer, better way to learn.

Halina    Yeah.

Rob    And music, so how does music continue, or how does it play out in your life today?

Halina    It doesn't.

So there's a story to this. The story is that I've been playing music, different instruments, since I was a little girl, really, and then I continued until I was around 50, and then it became more, quote-unquote, serious, and I really specialize in improvised music, like this free improvisation. I love that it came together with my meditation practice.

So I did that for most of my life, and then when I was around 50, I lost interest, and pretty much at the same time, I started writing. And I haven't missed playing music since, and I actually rarely listen to music these days because I enjoy silence. But sometimes, you know, I would go to a jazz concert or something and love it. But it's, what would you say? This has played out. But it's been a wonderful journey for me, but it's over.

Rob    Ah. It's a natural conclusion, at least up to this point.

Halina    Yeah, but again, then the writing started. So it was as if the creativity wanted a different expression or something.

Rob    Oh, yeah, interesting.

Halina    Or I wanted a different expression.

Rob    Excuse me one second, my cat wants to get out of the room, so I need to open the door for him, her.

Okay, thank you.

Halina    So does it mean she was here all the time? So you had company?

Rob    Yeah, actually this was the she. We have a he and a she, my own female, and she was keeping us company this whole time.

Halina    Sweet.

Rob    Yeah, Luna, she's a sweetie.

Yeah, so your music kind of, you said the creativity kind of turned into writing. So it sounds like it kind of, well it kind of came naturally, but it seems like you're kind of the person who trusts those things and doesn't fight against it.

Halina    I do. And also, I'm really, I'm not good at doing something I don't enjoy. Like when it feels empty, it feels empty.

So I think there was probably a time when I was kind of still thinking I would play more or continue, but it just didn't happen. And I just lost interest. And so yes, it started naturally because I started having this prompt to write a story at the time. And it was very exciting to me because I hadn't done that since I was a child. So it was, so one thing became kind of boring and the other thing became exciting. So like, it's an easy choice, right? So yeah.

Rob    You want to share what the story was?

Halina    Yeah, well, that's a story about a story because I never finished it actually, but I kept coming back to it. Or rather, I did finish it and then I rewrote it and rewrote it and rewrote it and I never finished it. It never became a finished novel because it happened over so many years that I have changed and so the story had to change.

But the story was, to go back to a question, the story was surprising to me because I wrote in the same way in which I used to play music and the way I used to play music is that something would come to me and I would play it and it was the same with the story. Something would come to me and I would write it.

And the story that came to me was about a Danish woman who almost by accident travels to Brazil back in the 90s. And there's a whole adventure that happens, both in terms of nature, indigenous people, spirituality, relationships. When she leaves Denmark, she's around 30s and it's like she starts discovering who she really is and finds out eventually that she is quite a different person from who she thought she was.

And it's a good story, I think. Myself and a few people that have read the idea about and how it unfolds and what happens. But what I've been really working on and have never finished so far is the expression itself, the literature part of it, the language, the wording. And that's a different side of it, right? It's how to express what you want to express in words. What is the right way, quote unquote, of saying things.

And it has been changing for me and also I feel like still I'm 70 now, I have so much to learn and I'm not sure I will ever learn it in this life. But it's been quite a journey, but a very exciting and interesting one.

Rob    Oh, fascinating. So it sounds like you worked on that book over time quite a bit?

Halina    Oh yeah, because it started in 2005. That's 20 years ago, I'm almost ashamed to say. But I'm not ashamed to say, because it's a journey and I have finished other books in my life that I have published. But this is a journey over 20 years and that, an unfinished journey over 20 years. And 20 years is a lot in the human life. I have changed a lot since during that time. And while some of the things I expressed in the story are the same, others were not at all. And the world has changed a lot during the last 20 years as well.

But it's also, if we don't think of creativity as something that absolutely has to become a polished, finished product, then it's just a very exciting process. And I know that there are other writers or musicians or people who create who have some projects that just continue and never finished perhaps because that's just what happens with these projects.

Rob    So it can be kind of most about the journey, the activity, the verb rather than the noun, I guess.

Halina    Yeah, exactly that. And for me, it's to have a story like in the sense of that this happened and this happened and this happened. It's kind of easy because I just get inspiration. But how do you express it? That's the process.

And I want to share with you because I had a beautiful experience because it's been a process but also a struggle for me because I always felt that the story was much better than the way I expressed it. I've always been like not happy with the way I worded it, even if in many ways other people would say, it's fine, it's good. But I didn't feel that way.

And then I had this experience not so long ago when I heard an interview with an author whose name I sadly don't remember right now, an Indian-American author. And it was an interview with Oprah. And in that interview, the author said about her process that it was about excavating the truth, that when you write, you try to excavate the truth and that it's natural that when you start writing a story, you will be dissatisfied. And it's very important to allow it to be and then go deeper and keep going deeper until you feel this is the truth of what I wanted to say.

And when I heard this, it was like the first time when I understood, oh, this is why I wasn't happy with the words I've used or the language I use because it really wasn't the truth of what I wanted to say. And then I just started it recently, started experimenting with how would it be to write the truth of what I really wanted to say. And I noticed that I was writing in a completely different language, so to speak, than before, a completely different voice.

I'm very excited about it because, again, it's a learning process. And it's not just for writers. It's also for all of us, perhaps. How do we express ourselves in such a way that it feels aligned with our truth? Not necessarily what is true, what is false, but more like who are we really or our soul or what is our true natural expression, perhaps.

I don't think there are any final answers to it, but I'm very fascinated by it.

Rob    Wow, so just that idea of excavating the truth of approaching it that way, I mean, I don't want to say simple, but I mean it's very simple to kind of say that, just that expression and going in with that intention, you notice that it had kind of immediate results and resulted in something quite different.

Halina    Yeah, but I also think that the key is, because I think just as I heard it, it was the word truth that was resonating within me. But now, a few months have passed. It's the word excavating that interests me because, yeah, because it's like, you know, we dig in and it's really about being willing to ask yourself, is this as deep as you can go?

And it doesn't have to be serious in order to be deep, right? It doesn't have to be, it's more like, is it as real as it can be? Is it as true to yourself or to the story? Are you willing to go deeper? Are you willing to dig deeper?

And that means that you, to be willing to dig deeper is to discover something you didn't expect, right? To be completely open to what comes up, which can, for example, be, sometimes maybe it's exactly what you expected, but sometimes it will be, it was for me, a completely different language, a completely different way of expressing myself. Because I was so, I think I had ideas about, you know, how you write a story or what is a good way to write a story or a popular way to write a story.

I don't know. But now it was about like, is this what I really feel is my language and just being curious and excavating. And again, I think that can be true about many things in life and not just writing.

Rob    Huh. Oh, yes. That's pretty deep. Well, I used the word deep, but it's... Hmm. I hadn't thought about that, I guess.

You know, I think I've certainly heard it before, that with artists' creatives, that there can be that, hmm, that tension or frustration of having kind of a vision or, you know, vision in the visual sense, but feeling or whatever, however that comes about, and not being able to express it or everything seems to fall short.

Halina    It's also, again, it's also a human condition. Like, I think we all struggle with trying to express something that feels like this is me. And it doesn't have to be a serious thing.

It's just, you know, it's at least in our culture, it's so easy to be kind of buried in your roles and some ideas about I am this or I am that, I am this role or that role, or these people expect this from me and other people expect that from me.

And I think we generally speaking are a confused species that maybe don't even know how confused we are, but are perhaps at some level looking for who am I? What is my expression really? What do I want? An expression, again, can be words, it can be how I act and how I act in the world, how I am in the world. I think many people feel that maybe, even without knowing it.

Rob    It's kind of, it's a funny thing because, I don't know, it's like, well, this is me. So, I mean, I know who I am, how could I not know who I am? And yet, it is possible or maybe common to not know who we are to some extent, varying extents.

Halina    I think so. And also because, at least this is my experience, that who we are changes all the time. Or who we think we are changes all the time because first of all, we are different perhaps at work or with a spouse or with a friend or walking in nature. We change.

It's like different parts of us. So, when we are in one aspect of us, in that moment, we think this is me. But then we come in a different situation and are kind of different. And then we think, oh, this is me. And this just goes on and on.

And also, even you know, I live alone and I spend a lot of time alone and I see these shifts happening all the time. You could wake up one day and feel, I don't know, happy. And you're like, hmm, this is me? But then half an hour later, something happens and you feel maybe worried. And now you feel this is me, right? This is me. I'm this worried person.

And that continues throughout the day. We react or interact with our circumstances and with the people. So, we change all the time. So, we think we know who we are, but most of the time, I'm not sure we do.

And it's not a bad thing. But I think it's not a bad thing because this is life. This is how we live. We change all the time.

But I find it exciting. Because it's kind of the same thing. We think we know who we are, but really don't. And we can surprise ourselves if we want to.

Rob    Yeah, that is exciting.

Halina    Who am I going to be in the next moment or later today or tomorrow? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we can also surprise each other, obviously. But many times, we avoid that. Many times, we avoid surprising other people. We kind of stay in the role, is my experience.

Rob    Yeah, yeah, certainly. Yeah, particularly with family comes to mind, I notice that when I go back to see family, my siblings, or when my mom was around, that I could definitely feel that tug of, you know, going back to maybe who I was in childhood and being something different was, is, difficult, like I could feel that pull.

Halina    Yeah, definitely.

Rob    Wow. Well, this was fun. I loved going off on those things.

But your story, so your story is, you're still working on it?

Halina    Occasionally. I've just, I don't know, actually. I've just had a period of time when I actually felt that I was done writing, that I have published the books I have published, and it kind of stopped.

But recently, I kind of start dabbling with it again, or dabbing with it, and so I don't know. But I still, when I think about it, I still have the curiosity.

So my guess is that I will never finish it, but I may come back to it like on and off when I feel like it and keep excavating. And I think that's okay because, again, there are things in our lives that need to be unfinished and other things will finish. That's life.

Rob    Yeah, it is, isn't it?

So let's start off with the questions.

Halina    Oh, I thought you were done already, but no, you just started. I thought this conversation was done!

Rob    That was just the introduction!

Halina    Oh my gosh. But that was like an hour.

Rob    Yeah, it was a while, wasn't it? Well, it felt great.

Halina    Well, you will edit it, right?

Rob    Yes, yes.

Halina    Okay. Oh my God. But I think some of it, some of it we have covered actually, maybe a lot of it actually. But we'll see. Okay, we play along.

Rob    Okay, yeah, let's find out.

So the first one, what is the most creative thing you do, or what do you do to be creative?

Halina    Well, right now, the most creative thing I do is to kind of just live my life in the sense that when I used to play music, it was because it was improvisation. It was very much about like listening within and then letting the music come out.

And it has been the same with writing. And because I'm kind of in a space where I won't be that creative or as much as I used to be or maybe not at all, but I experience that I continue being creative but just with life.

So I listen in more now to how do I feel? What do I feel like doing right now? What's the next thing? What's the next thing? What's the next thing?

And that's, to me, a creative way of living with this very little structure, because I have the luxury of not having to have a structure and just life as such is creative, I feel.

Rob    Oh, yeah, I like that.

Okay, so next question, what is your favorite routine or habit?

Halina    Well, I've been contemplating this a lot because what does it mean that it's favorite? Because, well, there are three things that I came to think about, and one is walking in nature, and the other is meditation, and the third one is reading. And I'm not sure which one to say is my favorite because I wouldn't want to live without any of them.

It's a beautiful combination to have in my life, walking in nature, connecting with nature and this feeling of wonder. I pretty much walk always in this--there's beautiful nature where I live but I pretty much go for the same few walks every day and it's always new.

It's always completely and utterly new and unbelievable and wonderful. And aside from it being healthy, and good for my body. There's so much beauty there, so I love that.

And it's kind of the same with meditation. I meditate more than I used to, now. I've been doing it every day pretty much all my life but now it's more.

But it's the same thing that you sit down or I sit down and I just sit down without, no I don't listen to a guided meditation, I just sit there and present to what is there and that again is different every day. And there can sometimes be a feeling of wonder and sometimes of boredom and sometimes of something else but it feels very, very important.

And the third thing is reading, especially reading fiction which I love, that is like another way of experiencing curiosity and wonder and sometimes boredom and when there's a book that I find boring I stop reading it, I don't try to finish it. There are many books that I don't finish but then there are a few books where it's such a beautiful experience like on every level, the story, the world within the book, the wording, the language.

So these are my three favorite things, even if you wanted one, I have to mention all of them.

Rob    Ah, that's great, that's great. Actually I think of, sometimes I don't like favorite things, or what's the best, because it feels limiting. So I like that you chose three different ones.

Halina    And I could continue, of course, seeing some close friends, etc. I won't continue, this is it. [laughter]

Rob    (Thinking about that...)

So meditation, you said you've been doing every day for most of your life, how did that come about?

Halina    Well, it started actually with a friend of mine when we went to high school. She was somehow engaged with transcendental meditation back then. And for some reasons that are a mystery to me today, she asked if I wanted to go with her there.

And it was a weird experience because there is a certain sense of religion with transcendental meditation. There is a structure and they're very strict about it. But I think for me it was just a way to start. And I was drawn to this, you know, sit there and do this, go inside basically.

And then after a couple of years, I forgot all about transcendental meditation and just started meditating but just sitting there without just being present. And for me that's like necessary, it's a necessity, like that time spent in peace.

I can skip a day sometimes or skip a meditation, but within pretty short time, like with nature, I can, you know, decide one day I'm not going out today. But then the next time I'm like, oh, I have to go. Or, oh, I have to meditate now. It becomes, and it's not just a habit, it fulfills something in need within.

And when meditation, again, sometimes it's nothing. You just sit there and you relax or don't even relax because you can't or something. But other times it's that too, it's an excavating the truth of who you are.And there are like worlds that open or there's a deep joy that opens. And there are no explanations. There's no analysis. There's just this experience that there is something so much bigger than I am or than we are. And I love feeling that.

Rob    That's wonderful.

How do you explain your meditation to somebody who doesn't know about meditations, never meditated, and they're curious and it's like, well, how would I do that?

Halina    This too is about listening in a way. It's about sitting on a chair. Some people sit in complicated lotus positions. That's not me. I just sit on a chair and make sure I won't be disturbed.

Turn the phone off for sure. Mute it.

And I set a timer. For me, it's 20 minutes. It could be in the beginning, it could be just five minutes. It can be four hours, depends on who you are. But start with something small.

And then just kind of sit and breathe and perhaps in a way observe. But observe is a difficult word because it's not observing as an analyzing. It's more like... I'd say it's like when you are in nature and you sit on a bench and just look at the landscape around it. You don't analyze it, right? You kind of take it in. That's what we do, I think.

And sometimes our thoughts will wander off and then we notice this and then we go back to just taking the landscape in and noticing what is there and just being with it, really, right? When we sit in nature, we're just being with it.

It's kind of like that. It's like you sit with closed eyes and you're like, being with you. You are this nature that you're being with.

And sometimes it can be confusing because we have these overactive minds, most of us, with too much thinking that's going on. And that can be disturbing because that takes you away from being there. And there are some simple things you can do.

So, for example, you can decide that you will focus on your breath. Not deciding that the breath should be in any special way, but just noticing that you're breathing.

So, mostly when you start thinking, we're not aware of thinking. But at some point we realize, oh, I've been thinking. Then you can go, okay, now I can go back to noticing my breath, not changing it and just noticing it. Oh, I'm breathing.

So, it becomes this in and out, just I'm present, I'm breathing. Oh, I'm not present anymore. Back to breathing. And that just continues.

And it's like with weather. It changes every day how it feels, and that's fine.

I had a conversation with a coaching client the other day when we were talking about this, and he had this... I don't remember what the question was, but it was something you know. How can I become better at it?

And my answer was that maybe there isn't any better. There is just, continue meditating. And yes, we know today that it has great benefits for your health, mental health, but also physical health. It's a good thing to do and all that. But basically, you just meditate to meditate to meditate.

But it's a lovely thing to do, especially in our busy world where we get so much input. And now with smartphones, we get so much input that we cannot process really.

And this is the time of the day where you say like, goodbye world, outer world. I'll be gone for 20 minutes. Leave me alone.

Rob    Wow, so since high school?

Halina    Since I was 18.

Rob    18?

Were you going to say something? I'm sorry.

Halina    No, I'm just going to say it. I'm 70, so we can do the math. What is that? That would be 58 years, right?

Rob    No, 52.

Halina    52 years. 52 years.

Rob    So I meditate as well, and I've been doing it for quite a few years, I guess almost 30 years. I mean, I feel as if not a lot of people meditate, or at least people I interact with.

So did you, at least when you started out, did it feel like something that was, that you were a little unusual, that this is something not many people do or could relate to?

Halina    I didn't feel a little unusual. I felt like a weirdo.

I remember that for the... until... but that's meditation, but also living a spiritual life was really a taboo. Until it became, people started talking about, and I don't remember when that was, maybe it was in the 90s, I don't remember.

So for at least 20 years or more, I wouldn't say... I wouldn't tell anyone what I was doing, even if it was in a way the most important part of my life. Because that would put me in the category of weird and crazy and strange, et cetera. But luckily since then, it has become mainstream. It's totally mainstream today to meditate, to have a spiritual life.

So at some point I started gradually telling people, in the beginning--also with coaching--I would say I'm kind of a psychologist, but not a therapist, maybe. And then I would say "coaching", because now coaching became more mainstream. And then I start saying, "spiritual coach". Getting closer and closer to what I'm really doing, because the world has been changing and people understand more and more what it is. And they didn't back then.

So yeah, not so little unusual, it was.

Rob    [laughing] Weirdo.

Halina    That's how I felt, really.

Rob    It all started with TM, going to Transcendental Meditation with your friend from high school?

Halina    Yeah, but that was just a way to start. I never related to the organization. It was just a method of meditation. It was just to get started somewhere.

Rob    And just starting with that, there was something you got out of it that kept you going, or that made you come back?

Halina    Yeah. I think it was maybe twice a day. I don't remember. There was a rule around that too.

But it's definitely this possibility to just sit twice a day and not do anything. That was new. Because this is not how people live, not even today. Something needs to be happening all the time. Except in nature, perhaps.

But that was what drew me into it, was this "just sit there". Wow.

Rob    That's beautiful.

And you mentioned sitting at high...

Halina    What about you?

Rob    Yeah, me?

Halina    Yeah.What drew you into meditation?

Rob    Hmm. There were a couple things, I guess, that come to mind.

One, when I was, I remember this was like '94, '95. I guess I've always been kind of a bookworm and into reading since I was, boy, in grade school. By the time I was in seventh grade, that was all, it became all nonfiction. I've really never read fiction since, by choice, other than in school.

And so I read a lot of self-help books, psychology, you know, some spirituality, I guess. My mom was always into New Age kind of things, weird things, whatever it was. You know, she'd go from thing to thing to thing. So we had books around.

And so I was always curious about different kinds of spiritual type of things, New Age things, including meditation. But meditation, it was something, I guess, that I knew about but wasn't particularly interested in trying, but kind of had some curiosity about, I think. But it kind of also sounded boring. And I didn't know, like, what's this about?

And then around 1994, '95, I came across this book called The High Performance Mind by Anna Wise. She had taken, I'm not sure what they're called, like EEG machines, things that measure brainwaves.

Halina    Yeah.

Rob    And she would measure brainwaves of people who are meditating, people who are not, and show, you know, like, what's going on there with alpha waves, beta waves, theta waves, delta waves. And that got me more curious.

And she showed how, you know, some really experienced meditators and Tibetan Buddhists and that type of thing, how, you know, it really registered differently. And I guess me having a pretty scientific, analytical, logical mind--that really registered with me, like, ooh, now I see, like, there's something there. I can see, like, you know, if you can measure it in brainwaves, that's like, okay, I'm more curious now. So that got me more curious.

I tried maybe meditating a couple times, but it didn't really captivate me or it didn't pull me in.

I also remember getting a--what did they call it--a mind machine? I don't remember what they called it, but back in the 90s, I haven't heard of them really since, but machines to, like, entrain your mind to brainwaves with lights and sound. And so I had tried one of those one time, borrowed from a friend of a friend, but I didn't really get into that.

Then when we moved to Portland in '96, there was a dinner--a coworker invited us over to dinner. My wife, Sara, was talking with the wife of another coworker. Oh, the woman asked Sara, like, what she does, and Sara mentioned "meditation".

I guess Sara had started meditating by then, I think. It might have been like a Jack Kornfield book she had read and got her interested. And so she had, I think, started within the past six to twelve months, something like that.

So she mentioned that, and the woman said, "oh, I meditate too, and we have this practice we go to that's pretty strange, pretty out there, because the teacher channels this entity." And once I heard about that, I was like, oh, I'm curious about this. I definitely want to check this out.

We started going, and that was the beginning. And what really helped for me was meditating in a group of people. I can't imagine myself maybe ever pursuing it without that. There was something about sitting in a group and doing it together that got me started.

And then you talked about a timer. I wasn't... I would meditate in a group. We would go start out once a week. At one point I think there was like three times a week.

And when I wanted to start at home, I decided to use a timer, and I remember starting out with two minutes. And it's like, that's all I could... It was small enough where it's like, "okay, I can do two minutes by myself."

It kind of grew from there, I guess. And off and on over the years, there's been times where I didn't do it, but now for a number of years, I've been doing it every day, morning, and night. It's been wonderful. Yeah, like you, I can't imagine living without it.

Halina    But I think there's this, when you mentioned this meditating in a group, I think in general that because it has become mainstream, it's so accessible today, which means there are so many ways to meditate, either both alone and in groups and in all kinds of meditation.

And that means that... I think it's important to find a way that works for oneself. And then it can change along the way, but none of us has to do it in one specific way. We can find a way that works for us and then take it from there.

Rob    Yeah.

Wow. Fifty-two years meditating. That's great.

Halina    [laughing] Well, I guess there's many things we get to do.. we get to do many years... when we reach a certain age. It's not so special, really.

Rob    Well, it sounds like for you, it's something like eating that you just kind of have to do. You certainly want to do.

Halina    Yeah, yeah.

Rob    It wasn't something you were forcing yourself to do or disciplining yourself to do?

Halina    No, no.

Rob    So last question.

What's something you've let go of that has made your life better?

Halina    So I've been pondering this, and I'm sure there are many things I've let go of along those 70 years. But I came to think of something that I am in the process of letting go of.

So I cannot say yet that I have let go of it, but it's work in progress. And that thing is to be myself more and to not be so... I was just going to say not to be so nice, which doesn't mean that I'm not nice. But I definitely have a--speaking of also who are we really--I have learned from a very, very early age to kind of find out how can I please my environment? How can I be with other people so that they like me?

And I've become so good at it that it has in a way taken a whole lifetime to find out how much it is a--not how much, but that it has become part of my personality that doesn't serve me and doesn't serve other people either. And I found out that there is a part of me that, you know, kind of... I'm very good at reading people, you know?

But I'm also... It has something to do for me with age and hopefully for other people who doesn't have to do anything with age. But for me it has, so I'm reaching a time in my life when I'm like, I don't have time for this. I don't have time for playing a role as a very polite and very nice person.

But it has become very important and even essential for me to be more genuine, you could say, be more myself. Which again doesn't mean that I'm so... not nice... or that I am... It's not that. The opposite of being a people pleaser is not being unpleasant.

It just means expressing myself more honestly, but also sometimes setting boundaries where I didn't do that before. And it's kind of...

I notice what's happening with that is that I relax more in my body. That there's been a certain low level of stress that's always been there because I always had to be in a certain way I felt. Even with friends, some friends at least, and certainly with strangers.

And I think many people do it, but it's in the culture that I come from, it's a survival mechanism. It's a survival strategy. If you're nice to people, then you're safe. If you're nice to people, then you won't challenge them and you'll be okay. And I don't need that anymore because I know now that I am safe. I don't have to strategize around it.

And it's very liberating because it's like you can breathe more freely when you're more just being yourself and speaking your truth. And again, it doesn't have to be against others and doesn't have to be problematic. It just means you're being yourself rather than translating yourself so that no one gets provoked. And I find it liberating.

So that's the one thing that I am still learning. That is the practice. Because it's such an unconscious thing that I think most of us perhaps are doing. Or maybe some, not most of us, but some personality types are doing that we don't even think.

I never thought of myself as a people pleaser. I actually thought of myself as a rebel because I could be that too. But in some contexts I could be a rebel, but in other contexts, especially as I got older, I became more of a people pleaser without noticing it really.

And I don't think I'm the only one doing that. And it's a good thing for oneself to just kind of be yourself and not limit yourself and not put yourself to some suffering in order to please other people or what you think would please other people.

But it's also good for other people because I think we all perhaps have experienced sometimes someone that is just themselves. And they're easy to be around actually.

Because when someone is just themselves and they just say yes when they mean yes and they say no when they mean no, it's simple. It's easy to be around them and it's not so personal. It's like, okay, you mean a yes, you mean a no, okay, this is you. But when people try to please each other, it becomes strangely complicated and murky, right? Like you say yes, but I feel something else. Or you say no, but what do you really mean? And that creates distance between people, right? And tension.

So I think it's a good thing at least for me and maybe not only for me.

Rob    Wow, I love that one. What a wonderful thing to let go of.

Halina    Little by little.

Rob    Yeah, yeah.

So when you mention, you know, youo're good at reading people and I think of, you know, I think of situations where I'm interacting with somebody, I'm reading them. And I think what I really want to say is this, but I think that they're not going to be happy or I can see they're already unhappy or agitated or something.

So what do you do in those cases if you think that being you is going to upset somebody else? And maybe it could be like very low level. I mean, it doesn't have to be like you're going to...

Halina    Yeah, no, but I actually experienced it the other day. It was quite personal, but it was a good experience.

So because I have to be the coach and the mentor for so many years, there's been a tendency both for me to kind of use that part of me in personal conversations, but also for other people to kind of expect it. And there was there was a situation some time ago when when I noticed that someone started and it was a very real need for them to need to talk about some difficulties they were moving through. And I started feeling very uncomfortable.

And something very funny happened because because I first I noticed that I was like, what am I going to do with this? I'm feeling uncomfortable. And then I noticed that I was already saying it.

I was already saying to that person, I'm sorry. I can't do this because that makes me... I can play that role for you in a different context on a different day, but not in this particular situation. I cannot do that. And I knew they would be hurt, because they had a need that I wasn't willing to fulfill.

But they survived. You know, they kind of I could see this person got hurt and then we kind of continued.

And so the world didn't go under, you know, but what I noticed is that again, that part of me was like, how can I... how can I change this? I'm not feeling well. But perhaps in the past I would just accept that I'm not feeling well, but I'm not willing to accept that.

And then the most funny thing for me, again, was that I noticed that I was already speaking, that that it happens spontaneously. It just happens.

That's a good sign for me, because again, this people pleasing... In your example, you're aware that, "oh, how can I say that so that...", but many, many, many times we're not even aware that that we're adjusting, that we're seeking approval, that we're seeking validation, that we're trying to play a role. We're not aware of it. We just do it because we master it many times.

So it's like a change, like in oneself, mostly it's really not about the other people. It's about, again, how does it feel to be my natural self? Oh, I'm tense. That means that something here is not flowing naturally.

So it's about noticing.

Rob    Yeah.

So just the noticing, if you notice it, then you kind of naturally are going to take care of it. It's not like you have to strategize or plan or force yourself or anything.

Halina    No. I think it's, as they say, it's a journey, right? And it's a work in progress and a journey and all that. And I think it's different for every person.

But I think it's a healthy question to ask ourselves, like, is this good for me and is this good for the other person? Or more general, is the way I am in the world good for me and is it good for the world? Is this who I want to be in the world?

Because we will always play some roles, right? Because we are in different situations. But I think it's a good question to ask.

Also because, you know, it's because of my age, but not only because of my age, I'm very, very, very aware of being at the end of my life. And that... for however long that may take. And that means asking more important questions because I don't have forever.

None of us has forever. So how do we want to spend our time? How do we want to communicate with people? What do we want to experience? It's a choice.

Who do we want to be before we disappear... [laughing] from the stage.

Rob    I think that's great that you're realizing, I guess you said, very aware that you're at the end of your life. You know, people can react to that in a number of different ways.

And you're kind of recognizing, I guess, the preciousness of your time. I mean, on one hand, we think time is a commodity and it's really not. But on the other, definitely thinking about "my time left is limited". Or maybe, "there's less in front of me than there is behind me".

Halina    Oh, sure. [laughing] Definitely. Yeah.

Rob    It sounds very healthy.

Well, let me kind of summarize the things we talked about.

So for creativity, we certainly talked a lot about your creativity with your story and a number of other things, I think, as well. Music.

And then the second question was around, oh, it was around habits or routines that you enjoy.

And you talked about meditation and walking in nature and reading.

And then the final question was about something you let go of that has made your life better. And you're in the process of letting go of being nice, polite and people pleaser.

Wonderful. Well, I loved all those answers and discussions we had around that. I certainly found it inspiring.

So thank you so much, Halina. I really enjoyed talking with you.

Halina    Thank you, Rob. Thank you for listening. You're an amazing listener.

And thank you for asking the deeper questions. It was really interesting. So thank you.

Rob    Thank you.

This has been the Three Answers podcast. Thank you to today's guest, Halina, in Denmark.

In Portland, Oregon, I'm Rob Bednark. Thank you for listening.

(The end.)